The next is the transcript of an interview with College of Chicago professor Robert Pape that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on Sept. 14, 2025.
MAJOR GARRETT: Welcome again. We’ll take a more in-depth have a look at the issue of political violence in America. And we’re joined now, I am glad to say, by College of Chicago Professor Robert Pape. He is the founding director of the Chicago Mission on Safety and Threats. Professor, it is nice to have you ever with us. Thanks for becoming a member of us. What are the development traces, and what’s the key terminology you need my viewers to grasp?
PROFESSOR ROBERT PAPE: We are actually in a watershed second for what I name the period of violent populism in America. This period is outlined, initially, by two components: Primary, a rising tide of political violence on each the appropriate and the left. And simply suppose, and I need to return to 2002 simply consider the attack- the assassination try on Nancy Pelosi, Democratic Chief of the Home, missed her, virtually killed her husband. The try on Brett Kavanaugh, conservative Supreme Court docket Justice. Two makes an attempt on Republican candidate Donald Trump, after which the- in Minnesota only a few months in the past, not simply makes an attempt, however precise assassinations of Democratic leaders. Josh Shapiro, Governor of Pennsylvania. And now, we see Charlie Kirk assassinated. And what we’re seeing is that this clear rising development in numbers of assaults, side-by-side with that, although, we’re additionally seeing a rising tide, a groundswell of help for political violence on each the appropriate and the left that corresponds with this rising development of political violence on each the appropriate and the left. Our Heart on the College of Chicago Mission on Safety and Threats, we now have been conducting extremely dependable nationwide surveys on political violence- the help for political violence amongst Individuals for over 4 years. We began this in the summertime of 2021. Our most up-to-date survey in- survey in Could discovered increased ranges of help for political violence on each the appropriate and the left than we now have ever seen, and that is one of many the reason why I rang the alarm bell with that large op-ed within the New York Occasions in June saying we’re on the cusp of main political violence, and I am sorry to say we’re now proper within the grip of violent populism.
MAJOR GARRETT: And in that survey knowledge, is it that individuals who reply to your survey say, to reconcile myself to the political consequence I need- I will probably be keen to resort to violence? Is that the important thing connection level?
PAPE: The important thing connection is the actual political grievance. So we requested, simply offer you an instance, 39% of Democrats say they agree that the usage of power is justified to take away Donald Trump from the presidency. After we go deeper to probe what do they imply by use of power? 55% are speaking about assassinations. They’re speaking about deadly makes use of of power. That is why we use that time period. On the appropriate, we additionally requested that exact same survey. We discovered 24% of Republicans agree that Donald Trump is justified in utilizing the US army to suppress democratic protesters. So these are very particular questions. We have now a complete slew of those questions in order that we actually can communicate with nice precision about what are the grievances that folks need to say use of power is justified. We all know what the that means of that time period is, after which we are able to see Democrat-Republican within the cross-tabs.
MAJOR GARRETT: Does your analysis buttress the purpose that each Senator Lankford and Senator Coons made, which is the web is an accelerant and an amplifier?
PAPE: It is an accelerant, but it surely’s not the foundation trigger. So, finding out this drawback now for 5 years, I discovered that simply as around the globe, large social change, it drives political violence. We see this in different international locations around the globe, and- however the particulars of the change differ. We are actually transferring for the primary time in our nation’s 250-year historical past, from a white majority democracy, to a white minority democracy. In 1990, we have been 76% non-Hispanic white. Right now, we’re 57% non-Hispanic white. It will likely be one other 10 years, possibly 15 if we deport numerous these undocumented, unlawful immigrants, earlier than we make the transition to a really white-minority democracy. Effectively, this generational change has occurred. It began about 10 years in the past, with the actual tipping level technology and corresponds with the rise of Donald Trump, why his situation of immigration is meteoric, why it is morphed from immigration that means cease folks crossing the border to now deporting mass numbers of individuals, as a result of there are folks on the appropriate who need to cease or reverse this, and likewise the virulent response to Donald Trump on the left- on components of the left, who need to hold this going. That is actually the taproot, and that is why we have to expect- this left to its personal gadgets will worsen and be with us for 10 years.
MAJOR GARRETT: So, it is a demographic story that’s making a political backlash that will get amplified and accelerated on-line. Do I’ve that proper?
PAPE: You’ve got acquired it precisely proper. And these are why it is not the web will not be necessary. It is a reinforcing issue. And there may be –
MAJOR GARRETT: In different phrases, it is too simplistic to say it is the web?
PAPE: Precisely. As a result of-that’s why- a couple of years in the past, folks challenged my findings, and stated, oh no, no, we’ll simply deplatform folks. So the issue right here is simply the web, so we will deplatform X, Y, and Z. We deplatformed X, Y, and Z, and you recognize what? Did not miss a beat. And the reason being as a result of, sure, it’s an additional- it is like throwing gasoline on the fireplace, however the web will not be the fireplace itself. There’s one thing happening, which is admittedly radicalizing our politics. And I am sorry to say, it is a story that we have seen around the globe, in different international locations, different occasions. And so this is- that is the social change resulting in radicalized politics that adjustments winners and losers in our society for actual, and that is resulting in political violence.
MAJOR GARRETT: Professor, it has at all times been a trademark of this nation, we now have type of considered ourselves as having this experiment that has a lot of variations of opinion, spasms of violence, however in the long run, we reconcile and we transfer ahead. Are you any kind of optimistic about that and that underlying assumption concerning the core potential of America than you have been beforehand?
PAPE: The long run is in our arms. This isn’t locked-in with future. That stated, if we do nothing, this can hold getting worse. The primary factor we now have to do is we’d like our political leaders to step up. And we simply noticed an occasion of that, simply beforehand, the place we now have Senators from either side of the aisle making a joint video look. Effectively, that is actually quite- to sentence violence. That is necessary, as a result of the leaders can restrain their very own constituents. After they bad-mouth the opposite facet’s constituents, our knowledge exhibits that makes every thing worse. That is the worst of all potential worlds, as a result of it produces defiance. We have to step that up. What would step that up? A summit between President Trump, Governor Newsom, and Governor Pritzker, a public session the place they, all collectively, condemn political violence.
MAJOR GARRETT: Professor Pape, I am very glad you are right here. Modeling habits issues in lots of contexts, in life, political, and in any other case. Thanks very a lot. We’ll be again in only a second.
[/gpt3]
