I believe one factor to think about is — Michelle There’s two Michelles. We have been ready so that you can do this. I do know. Michelle C. I’m Michelle Cottle and I cowl nationwide politics for New York Occasions’ Opinion and I’m right here this week with my fabulous colleagues, opinion columnists Jamelle Bouie and Michelle Goldberg. And we’re going to take a temperature examine on the Trump resistance. And one of many key areas the place it’s gaining floor, which is mass deportations. So, buddies, Howdy. Welcome. Thanks for doing this. Hello, Michelle. Hello, Jamelle. Howdy, Howdy. All proper Michelle, we’re going to start out with you as a result of you’ve been out in La reporting on the native resistance motion to Trump’s deportation efforts there. So what drew you and what did you discover out. Effectively, I believe what drew me is that I’ve been wanting to write down about perhaps name it resistance 2.0, which I believe appears to be like very completely different than the resistance. The primary time round, and has led some individuals to suppose that perhaps there isn’t as a lot of a resistance to Trump as there was in his first administration. I believe that’s in all probability true amongst elite establishments, however there really is a large quantity of activism happening. It’s slightly below the floor, or in methods which are more durable for outsiders to see. As I’ll clarify. So earlier this month, I used to be getting in New York to immigration court docket. So mainly ICE used to not there was an settlement or a coverage that ICE wasn’t going to go to delicate locations like immigration court docket, as a result of clearly it dissuades individuals from following the regulation. In order that’s modified. ICE is now you go to immigration court docket in New York. You go there and anyone can go there. They’re open to the general public. And, you see these knots of males trying like international paramilitaries. Mainly, they’re in of plainclothes with retailer purchased tactical vests and balaclavas or Gator masks that come as much as their eyes. They’ve bought hats they usually look forward to individuals to return out of their hearings, after which they seize them. And whenever you speak to attorneys and volunteers, the foundations or the norms change from daily. So at first, they have been solely grabbing individuals when their circumstances have been dismissed, which having your case dismissed is an efficient factor in Legal Court docket, but it surely’s not a very good factor in immigration court docket, as a result of it mainly implies that your declare to asylum has been dismissed. So when that occurred, they might take individuals. Then that modified. And the choose would in a few of these circumstances, the choose would inform them to return again for his or her subsequent listening to, however nonetheless, they stroll out the door and other people grabbed them, and generally they seize one member of the household and never the opposite. And you’ll’t actually inform why, as a result of their claims are conjoined. And you’ll think about how terrifying that is for the individuals ready in a ready room to enter their listening to, seeing one particular person after one other dragged off. And so what you’ve seen is sort of extraordinary individuals in New York volunteer to only be there to do what they will, and what they will do is fairly restricted. They’ll take down their immigration ID quantity to file in order that any person is following them via the system. They’ll get an emergency contact data in order that they will name their family members and inform them that their particular person, that the particular person isn’t coming residence, has been sucked into this technique. They could be capable to in some circumstances, join them to attorneys. So anyway, so I’ve been reporting on this, however my understanding for what I used to be listening to was that these efforts in New York are much more widespread in L.A. as a result of the deportation regime is simply a lot, way more aggressive in L.A. And one of many issues that actually struck me being there, they’ve this type of fast response community the place persons are continually patrolling their neighborhoods to see if ices and the realm to alert their neighbors. And one of many issues that actually struck me, although, was once I was interviewing the mayor, Karen Bass, and he or she informed me that she depends on the fast response community to learn about what ICE is doing in her metropolis, as a result of they’re actually not telling her something. And so, I imply, I believe the ethos of this motion is that sort of nobody is coming to avoid wasting us. There’s no person is sort of exercising energy on our behalf with just a few exceptions. And so individuals really feel like they’ve to arrange to guard their neighbors as greatest they will. And that was a second when she stated that actually drove that residence for me. Simply listening to Michelle describe ice exercise in courthouses. The masks that the snatching. My blood is boiling. Like I’m genuinely livid. Like very offended. Identical to listening to it described. And it’s not like I haven’t been watching movies and studying descriptions. So it’s not new to me, however simply excited about it and excited about what a profound violation it’s. Like, no matter, it’s important to have immigration enforcement. Certain for those who suppose that certain, we bought to have immigration enforcement, no matter. However immigration enforcement that entails basically kidnapping individuals. And I believe I don’t wish to however I believe it’s essential to only underline these are people who find themselves doing the whole lot they’re purported to do. The individuals who present up for his or her immigration appointments are by definition, following the regulation. Yeah to your level, this discourages individuals from displaying as much as attempt to do the proper factor as a result of it’s the apparent goal. They’re following the regulation and are being kidnapped, stolen and whisked away by these public servants. ICE brokers work for us technically, however who’re behaving in an imperious and unaccountable approach, hiding their faces, behaving like an precise secret police. And it’s simply it’s infuriating. And if Individuals witnessed it in another nation, they might instantly clock what it’s. The one cause why there’s any trace of a debate about what’s taking place right here is due to some perverse American exceptionalism. But when this have been going down in another nation, Europe, South America, Asia, it doesn’t matter the place if we’re taking place another nation, we might instantly clock that what we’re witnessing is a disappearance program by an unaccountable secret police. One of many organizers in of the Nationwide Day laborers organizing community that I used to be spending time with is from Salvador and saved saying to me, that is acquainted. I do know what that is. So subsequent to the financial system, immigration was thought of certainly one of Trump’s strengths within the final election. And he was fairly harsh about it. He didn’t make any secret of what he deliberate to do mass deportations. So he campaigned on mass deportations, and he campaigned on eradicating 20 million individuals. In fact, there should not 20 million undocumented immigrants. There are round 10 to 12 million, tops. And so the 20 million quantity was all the time inclusive of a lot of people who find themselves right here legally and following the regulation. I believe, and that is to some extent, Trump’s political superpower, I believe that folks simply didn’t imagine it. I believe that’s actually I believe he would say we’re going to deport 20 million individuals. We’re going to have mass deportations. And what voters heard was we’re going to take away all of the criminals and safe the border. However the whole lot will probably be mainly the identical. And there’s this delta between what he Trump and Stephen Miller particularly meant in what voters heard. That explains, in my thoughts the sharp decline in his standing on immigration and deportations. As a result of for those who have a look at the polling, he’s underwater on each. And I believe it has the whole lot to do with the truth that what voters heard was the established order, besides once they activate the TV, they don’t see photographs of. Folks on the border, that’s what they thought. However what’s really taking place, after all, is kidnappings and renditions of folks that most individuals know. I noticed a latest ballot that stated 1 / 4 of Individuals are anxious that somebody they know beloved one good friend, whomever coworker goes to get caught up on this kidnapping program, this deportation program. And that simply speaks to each the expansiveness of it and the truth that you possibly can’t do this type of factor with out touching the lives of extraordinary individuals, of residents. I principally agree with you, Jamelle. I believe the factor that I perhaps see it a bit of bit otherwise is that I believe there was, on this case, two teams of Trump voters there. There are actually Trump voters who have a look at these movies of say, a mom being ripped away from her screaming youngsters and can put up on-line, that is what I voted for, proper. There’s individuals who eat up the sadistic sort of deportation porn that official White Home websites are pumping out. And so I see Trump’s superpower a bit of otherwise. I see it as he was in a position he had the belief of each the individuals who stated he’s going to do precisely what he stated he’s going to do, and the individuals who thought that it was all simply hyperbole, or that he simply meant criminals. And in order that was all the time a sort of fragile coalition, since you’re solely going to make a kind of two teams completely happy. Yeah, I’ll say that. I do suppose that the people who find themselves like, that is what I voted for. I believe that’s a bit of little bit of saving face. I do suppose that’s a little bit of nicely, that is I don’t I believe there’s a sadistic a part of the. No, there’s a sadism there. However I additionally suppose there’s a little bit of like, that is unpopular. Folks don’t prefer it. It’s dragging down the president. And they also should say, nicely, that is what I needed. Clearly, that is what I like. Fairly than having to reevaluate any of the alternatives that they made. I believe that’s a extra optimistic view than I’ve. It’s not optimistic. I imply, what I’m saying is that when confronted with any sort of divergence between what they could be anticipating and what’s taking place, they’re doubling down on their. I simply I do suppose that there are individuals who like it. Yeah, I believe we’re speaking a couple of query of diploma. What share of persons are those for whom that is their dream situation, they usually wish to go farther. After which I do suppose an enormous chunk of individuals have been like, nicely, I didn’t suppose they have been going to return after my child’s soccer coach. That’s horrible. OK, so let me push again a bit of bit and say, when this primary began in L.A., there was this big uproar nationally. It bought loads of consideration. Elected officers throughout have been standing up and bitching about it. It has not remained within the public eye fairly a lot. What are the chances of this activism activism gaining traction nationally, and what’s going to it take for us to see what’s taking place in L.A. take off broadly throughout the nation. So I’m unsure that whether or not the media is protecting protests is the perfect gauge of how widespread they’re. As a result of once more, these protests are of onerous to cowl in identical to the intestine of TV information, particularly. When you’ve got 12 individuals maintaining watch on a Dwelling Depot and that’s taking place in 10 completely different locations, it’s not an actual spectacle. The rationale I count on it to catch on nationally is as a result of I believe that the ways we’ve seen in L.A. are going to unfold nationally. I imply, L.A., I believe was an illustration undertaking of what they intend to do. And ice has simply gotten this unbelievably huge infusion of cash within the tax invoice that Republicans simply handed and goes to be greater than most nations militaries. And they also’re going to should do one thing with all these individuals. And so I’d count on what we’ve seen in L.A. to unfold to different locations. I imply, already in New York, they’ve talked about flooding the zone right here within the final couple of days. And in order it spreads, I believe you additionally simply see lots of people on the market who’re horrified by what’s taking place, however really feel powerless or don’t know the place to I don’t know what to do about it. They don’t actually suppose that sort of marching and chanting is essentially going to have any impact. Clearly this can be a generalization, however the resistance. The primary time round, when Trump was first elected, was very targeted on making an attempt to shore up and affect establishments. So that you had indivisible that was fashioned by two former Hill staffers when Trump was first elected and arranged individuals by congressional district. Quite a lot of the work they did was making an attempt to affect their representatives. Folks don’t essentially have the identical sort of religion that there’s any establishment that’s coming to avoid wasting us. And so persons are on the lookout for issues to do. Can I say actual fast, simply on the query of nationwide media protection, that I believe it’s essential to do not forget that there’s CNN, there’s ABC, no matter. However there’s additionally native information associates and loads of these items is being lined. Are there nonetheless native information associates. There’s nonetheless native TV information 100%. And native TV information really does cowl these items on the common as a result of it entails neighborhood members. It entails public areas persons are conversant in. So it doesn’t even essentially should catch on within the Nationwide media for individuals to pay attention to this and conscious of it within the sense that it’s pervasive. The one final level I wish to make, I wish to say on this is considering the massive quantity of funding ICE has simply obtained from Congress and the administration. Pre this ICE was having a tough time hiring and retaining individuals. It’s not like an awesome job when it comes to issues that make you are feeling good on the finish of the day. And there are individuals in ICE proper now who’re like, nicely, this isn’t essentially what I signed up for. I didn’t signal as much as kidnap somebody’s abuela. And I do surprise can shovel cash at an company, however I do surprise in the event that they’re going to have the ability to rent the ten,000 individuals. They are saying they’re going to rent. Like, that’s really not simple. And when you think about that native municipal police departments across the nation are having a tough time hiring new individuals, when the U.S. army is having a tough time hiring individuals. The factor concerning the previous couple years of a powerful labor market is {that a} sort of job that requires loads of psychological stress, is simply not interesting to individuals and in addition probably not crucial. See, I have a look at it from a darker perspective is that they’ve shoveled all this cash into it. They’re going to rent all these individuals. They’re going to wind up hiring people who find themselves actually into it. And there are lots of people on the market who you simply don’t need doing this. However I’d suppose that if what you’re speaking about is a sort of self-selection the place the individuals who have ethical qualms about this don’t need it, that simply leaves extra rooms for the individuals who the cruelty is the purpose for them. However it’s. Oh, go forward. I’ve heard some at some point once I was at immigration court docket, there was a public defender who really, I don’t know if she was a public defender, however a volunteer lawyer or who labored for a gaggle that despatched attorneys. And he or she was actually, actually good at partaking a few of these ICE brokers and sort of making an attempt to attract them out and speak concerning the regulation and I imply, and it was fascinating each how little a few of them knew concerning the regulation. That they had been repurposed from the southern border. But additionally there was, as she drew them out, as she talked concerning the folks that she represented and what they’d been via, there was simply this even simply in that quick period of time, this type of change within the vibe. They have been nonetheless grabbing individuals, however there wasn’t the identical sort of barking like aggro. It simply – I had the sense that she had planted a tiny seed of unease in a few of these individuals’s minds, which I think about once more, how a lot that’s in the end going to make a distinction. I don’t know, however I do suppose that there’s going to be, for some individuals, an ethical harm. And I believe that they’re protecting their faces as a result of it’s intimidating. However I additionally surprise if a few of them are protecting their faces as a result of they’re ashamed. OK, in order we’ve famous, that is what the Trump administration campaigned on. Clearly, dysfunction on the border was an actual difficulty and other people needed it underneath management. And honest sufficient. Draconian or not, the administration appears to have discovered learn how to gradual the border movement. So do you suppose even with these, even with these harsh movies and protests. I imply, is it honest to say that this might nonetheless work for Republicans at election time. I imply, we’re additionally speaking a couple of good stretch of time earlier than anyone could make them may even take into consideration making them pay for this. So, I imply, on the one hand, these are such egregious human rights violations. These are such egregious constitutional violations that he stated he was going to do loads of issues. He stated he was going to attempt a bunch of former officers for treason. That doesn’t imply that if he went out and put Obama in handcuffs, we might say, nicely, guarantees made, guarantees saved. That stated, I additionally suppose that we will see within the polling that it’s not working for them. We might see that he’s approach underwater on immigration enforcement specifically. It really drives me loopy when individuals say, nicely, he discovered learn how to cease, learn how to cease chaos on the border. Yeah, he did that at the price of ending asylum in America. And in order that’s why earlier presidents couldn’t do it, as a result of they didn’t wish to finish America’s place as a vacation spot for individuals looking for — They have been following the regulation. Proper. And so the one approach that they may sort of get the border underneath management would have been with an enormous surge of assets to have extra judges and sort of officers to course of individuals since they didn’t have that, they have been unable to get issues underneath management. However sure, by ending America’s standing as a spot that gives asylum and as an alternative transport individuals looking for asylum to international gulags and maintaining them in essentially the most degrading and generally lethal situations, they’ve been in a position to get the border underneath management. I suppose that there’s people who find themselves going to offer them political credit score for that, however I don’t see the necessity to be part of them in that. Or there’s individuals who simply gained’t be there. I do know they gained’t be there driving vote. However I believe one factor to think about is Michelle. Michelle, we have been ready so that you can do this. I do know Michelle C. you stated the phrases you used for chaos on the border. And I wish to lob off the border and deal with the chaos half, as a result of I believe that the factor that was really driving the dynamic in favor of Trump final 12 months was his sense of chaos. Voters don’t like chaos. One of many issues that drives me a bit of loopy is every time individuals speak concerning the 2020 protests they usually say, nicely, the 2020 protests, contributed to Trump, blah, blah, blah, wokeness, blah, blah, blah. However whenever you really have a look at what occurred, when it comes to public opinion, the 2020 protests have been an enormous drag on Trump that in the event that they didn’t occur, Trump would have been in higher standing for reelection. And the mechanism there’s not a lot broad public sympathy with each single message popping out of them, however that folks don’t like chaos. They noticed all of the protests they usually have been like, that is dysfunction. And I don’t prefer it. They usually blame the incumbent for the dysfunction. Folks blame no matter dysfunction and chaos was on the border on Biden. What Trump has executed is traded one type of chaos and dysfunction for one more. He’s taken no matter could exist on the southern border after which simply plopped it into American cities. And so if he’s simply buying and selling one type of. Chaos and dysfunction for one more, there’s really, I believe, a very good quantity of proof to counsel that that is going to be dangerous actively dangerous to him as a result of he isn’t eliminating the chaos, he’s simply redistributing it. So right here’s my query to you, which is that, sure, that’s true. However what it’s going to return right down to is a PR struggle, as a result of what his argument is that, as you observe, he’s transporting it into Democratic led cities. He’s pitching the thought. I get it in my feed. I’m certain you do on a regular basis. Lands in my inbox. Take a look at the chaos in New York. Take a look at the chaos in California. He’s deliberately concentrating on blue areas. So he can plant the concept Democratic run cities are a large number that must be overseen. So it comes right down to partly, who can work this difficulty the perfect. So my query for each of you is, so how might the Democratic Celebration have formed the narrative higher on immigration as an alternative of being reactive to it. And do you suppose are you optimistic that they’ll be capable to do that going ahead. So I imply, on the one hand, clearly, I’m not a political strategist. I don’t suppose that there’s any indicators, once more, that what Trump is doing is working for him politically. I imply, it’s attention-grabbing for those who hearken to say, Joe Rogan on some of these items. As a result of him being aghast at what he’s seeing is, perhaps a extra essential, way more essential indicator than a bunch of New York Occasions’ columnists being horrified by what they’re seeing. I believe that a part of once I converse to activists, they really feel so profoundly deserted by the Democratic Celebration and so disillusioned by the Democratic Celebration, as a result of the Democratic Celebration, I believe, has internalized the concept this can be a good difficulty for Trump. However we want I believe, Democrats who’ve a constructive imaginative and prescient of immigration who aren’t simply speaking about how we will management, who’re pushing again on the concept is more and more prevalent in MAGA world, that immigration is only a sort of internet loss for this nation, and that we now have given up one thing essential about our heritage and are turning into some sort of third world shithole. Which, by the way in which, it’s weird to me that in case your actual concern is America’s devolution into a 3rd world nation, that you just wish to elect the white Idi Amin. However I additionally I simply I believe that you just want. How do I put this. Public opinion on immigration, you see, is actually thermostatic proper. And it’s actually sort of reactive to regardless of the individuals in energy are doing. So that you really see in polling way more help for immigration than we’ve seen in years. And Democrats, I imagine, and I believe I can’t inform you for certain if that is the proper factor to do. Politically, I can inform you for certain. It’s the proper factor to do morally is that they need to be selecting up on a few of that power and making a constructive case for the function of immigrants in our society for what they for the way in which that they enrich and revitalize this nation. And the way in which that what Trump is doing is an assault on not simply their rights, however our rights, foundational rules of what at its greatest, it’s meant to be an American. Yeah I believe Michelle is totally proper to say that the difficulty right here. A part of the explanation I believe Trump gained this benefit with immigration is as a result of Democrats ceded it to him. They stated, oh, nicely, the polls appear to be transferring in his course. And these are large applause traces for him. So we additionally must undertake this robust on the border language by adopting sort of the framing of this all Democrats did was additional cede the difficulty area to Trump, gave him area to mildew it and dominate it and form it much more. If you would like an particularly dramatic instance of this, look throughout the pond to what’s taking place within the U.Ok. the place Labour has adopted mainly the sort of Brexit-ish migrants are harming the nation language of Nigel Farage. And what it hasn’t executed is introduced these immigration skeptical voters again into Labour’s camp. What it has executed is expanded, ferocious and minded figures, political standing within the nation. So right here I believe Democrats must as Michelle stated, have a constructive imaginative and prescient for immigration and never only a sort of nicely, we’re going to guard the border, but additionally immigrants are good and we love them. However a full throated, this can be a nation of immigrants. Immigrants contribute to this nation that iPhone you’re holding in your hand is the product of immigrants just like the issues that you just love about this nation are largely a product of immigrants. I simply wrote not too long ago at this time about JD Vance’s imaginative and prescient of citizenship, and the way he cites the Civil Conflict on a regular basis. The Civil Conflict, a struggle gained by Union Military stuffed with immigrants. Prefer it’s a component. It’s a deep reduce, but it surely’s I imply, proper, but it surely’s simply key to his mythology. proper. I don’t know, to me, I imply, I completely take what all people’s saying. To me, this simply smells just like the Democrats strategy of. We simply bought to clarify to you why we’re proper. Effectively, this isn’t explaining. I imply, nicely, you do really do have to clarify to the general public why we expect we’re proper. But additionally I’d make the I’d make the argument. I’d make the argument that it’s when Democrats have been, for lack of a greater time period, this woke on immigration that they’ve executed higher. Joe Biden did higher in 2020. Hillary Clinton, we’ve had three Trump elections. Hillary Clinton now we will say did second greatest towards Trump with this explicitly like pro-immigrant sort of rhetoric. And he or she reached a standing with Hispanic voters that no Democrat since has been in a position to match. So perhaps it’s merely the case that what’s lacking within the political setting are simply nationwide political figures keen to say for can we curse on this. Like, oh, you possibly can curse. I encourage it. Come on keen to say like, f–, we’re going to have immigrants right here. All proper, so earlier than we finish this, do we expect this power goes to be sustained lengthy sufficient to make Republicans pay a worth for it. As a result of so long as all people’s mad proper now, they don’t give two shits. Once more, I simply suppose that I really feel like there’s such a disconnect between us, Michelle, as a result of I really feel such as you’re speaking concerning the subsequent election. I perceive how essential it’s imagine me. However I additionally suppose that the framing of lots of people I’m speaking to and I don’t suppose it’s flawed, is that we’re in a sort of scenario of authoritarian breakthrough the place these aren’t the sort of issues that may essentially get fastened within the subsequent election. And I don’t know that there’s I imply, I believe we must always demand and assume that the following election will probably be free and honest. However I additionally simply suppose that we’re not within the sort of system that we have been in a 12 months or two earlier than. And so the query, I imply, this can be a drawback for the Democratic Celebration and that there’s this an enormous disconnect between this activist power and the celebration itself to verify they perceive elections have penalties. And we’re on this mess as a result of individuals thought, oh, it doesn’t actually matter who we vote. I believe that that’s proper. However I additionally suppose that you just’re speaking I believe that the way in which lots of people really feel is like their communities are underneath a hostile occupation of people that hate them, they usually wish to understand how they will defend their neighborhoods. And so it’s only a step away. You’re going to see this power unfold, I believe, once more, as a result of there’s only a sort of, amongst tens of millions and tens of millions of individuals, a really deep horror over what’s happening and a desperation to do one thing, even when they don’t know precisely what, whether or not that in flip. I imply, I believe that my guess is how that can manifest instantly politically is in a requirement that the Democratic Celebration change. You see that in Mamdani. I wouldn’t be stunned for those who see much more main challenges, the anger on the market in direction of, a Democratic management that folks really feel is feckless they usually really feel like isn’t combating for them and isn’t defending them is simply so profound that I believe that we’ll have a sort of a Democratic Tea Celebration. The political penalties of that, I believe, are onerous to foretell. Though, I don’t even know if it’s essentially a query of transferring to the left. As a result of Elissa Slotkin has articulated this very well, that there’s, there’s the left proper divide, however there’s additionally the divide between individuals who suppose that Trump is an existential risk. And individuals who suppose that sort of fixing this as an election away. She’s typically touted because the reasonable way forward for the celebration, however she’s additionally within the first camp. And I believe that Democrats wish to see extra individuals like that. Yeah I’d say that so far as sustaining any sort of anger or momentum going into the following election. I Michelle’s proper to counsel that if the administration continues alongside these traces, it’s sort of unfold organically. However I additionally suppose that that is a part of the function for political training. I believe we now have a behavior as Individuals simply generally, of considering of political events solely within the context of an election 12 months. Nevertheless it’s like, nicely inside the capabilities of the Democratic Celebration as fractured and decentralized as it’s, particular person state Democratic events, native Democratic events to start working first with neighborhood teams to do this type of vigilance work to reference the antebellum America once more after the passage of the 1850 Fugitive Slave Act, you had what have been known as vigilance committees in plenty of Northern cities that labored typically with perhaps northern Whigs or the Republican organizations that have been coming to for on the time to mainly be careful for slave catchers. Totally potential for native Democratic events to try this sort of work. It’s completely potential for state, the state Democratic events and Nationwide Democratic events to mainly, do preserve a sort of media presence dedicated to disseminating these photographs of those ICE kidnappings and these ICE assaults. That’s a factor they will do. So my recommendation, and this has been sort of my recommendation for a while, is only for Democrats to suppose extra creatively about what they will do. And there’s loads you are able to do. There’s no rule that claims that it’s important to wait till the summer season earlier than an election to do messaging. You’ll be able to interact on this stuff 12 months spherical on a regular basis. And if I have been speaking to individuals who funded Democrats, I’d say that ought to spend much less time on the lookout for a liberal Joe Rogan, no matter which means, and extra time funding the sort of data dissemination and neighborhood teams which are really going to have the ability to activate when an election comes. OK I like this. You’ve gotten an motion plan. I’m all the time about inventive motion plans, so we’re going to go away it there. I thank each of you. Thanks a lot for all of this. Thanks. Joyful to be right here.
